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	<title>Comments on: Getting What you pay for: A (sort of) case study.</title>
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	<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study</link>
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		<title>By: steelhouseindy - WebForumz.com</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>steelhouseindy - WebForumz.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 15:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-218</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#039;ve seen in a long, long time.  As a matter of fact it breaks many of the rules I go over in this blog post.   As for it being a &quot;successful&quot; website... I don&#039;t think it really can be. It lacks [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;ve seen in a long, long time.  As a matter of fact it breaks many of the rules I go over in this blog post.   As for it being a &quot;successful&quot; website&#8230; I don&#8217;t think it really can be. It lacks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-202</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-202</guid>
		<description>And the browser determines the tab order to be the order of elements in the markup does it not?

I know you can add a class or ID attribute to anything but the tag p still means Paragraph no matter what class or ID you give it. The tag div has no inherent meaning which is why they are perfect for structure and layout. Of course in 2022 when HTML 5 is in full swing (lol) the div tag will lose it&#039;s importance as we will have tags like &lt;header&gt; and &lt;sidebar&gt; which are more correct in a semantic sense. For now though, divs rule.

I also forgot to mention h1 - h6 tags. The correct use of headings is another factor in my definition of clean code, although &quot;organised code&quot; would be the better term. I know I don&#039;t use them quite correctly on this site *slaps wirsts* but I fully intend to do so when I launch my redesign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the browser determines the tab order to be the order of elements in the markup does it not?</p>
<p>I know you can add a class or ID attribute to anything but the tag p still means Paragraph no matter what class or ID you give it. The tag div has no inherent meaning which is why they are perfect for structure and layout. Of course in 2022 when HTML 5 is in full swing (lol) the div tag will lose it&#8217;s importance as we will have tags like <header> and <sidebar> which are more correct in a semantic sense. For now though, divs rule.</p>
<p>I also forgot to mention h1 &#8211; h6 tags. The correct use of headings is another factor in my definition of clean code, although &#8220;organised code&#8221; would be the better term. I know I don&#8217;t use them quite correctly on this site *slaps wirsts* but I fully intend to do so when I launch my redesign.</sidebar></header></p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-201</guid>
		<description>(It eliminates the â€œneedâ€ for tab index attributes, again bolstering the clenliness of the code.)

Incorrect, Tab index is defined then by the browser not the page, thus would fail on WCAG WAI Standards, although tab index&#039;s are seldom used as they are pretty worthless.

BTW  Paragraph tags can be given an ID or Style you know? same with a  or  so, in reality its the same? ie if you want your break at 50px rather than the usual crap you could have</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(It eliminates the â€œneedâ€ for tab index attributes, again bolstering the clenliness of the code.)</p>
<p>Incorrect, Tab index is defined then by the browser not the page, thus would fail on WCAG WAI Standards, although tab index&#8217;s are seldom used as they are pretty worthless.</p>
<p>BTW  Paragraph tags can be given an ID or Style you know? same with a  or  so, in reality its the same? ie if you want your break at 50px rather than the usual crap you could have</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-200</guid>
		<description>I would interpret &quot;clean code&quot; as code that isn&#039;t table based and isn&#039;t loaded with style attributes.

Another factor that falls under my definition of clean code is markup that is in a logical order and uses logical, semantic tags. Not only does this make your code easier to work with in a text editor, the logical order has benefits for SEO &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; acessibility (It eliminates the &quot;need&quot; for tab index attributes, again bolstering the clenliness of the code.)

I think the standard I most strongly advocate is this idea of Semantic markup. Whenever I teach someone HTML I stress the importance of using the right tags for the job and not just paragraph tags all the time. I also stress the benefits of the div tag as it is semantically neutrual and can be given semantic meaning through CSS classes and IDs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would interpret &#8220;clean code&#8221; as code that isn&#8217;t table based and isn&#8217;t loaded with style attributes.</p>
<p>Another factor that falls under my definition of clean code is markup that is in a logical order and uses logical, semantic tags. Not only does this make your code easier to work with in a text editor, the logical order has benefits for SEO <em>and</em> acessibility (It eliminates the &#8220;need&#8221; for tab index attributes, again bolstering the clenliness of the code.)</p>
<p>I think the standard I most strongly advocate is this idea of Semantic markup. Whenever I teach someone HTML I stress the importance of using the right tags for the job and not just paragraph tags all the time. I also stress the benefits of the div tag as it is semantically neutrual and can be given semantic meaning through CSS classes and IDs.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-199</guid>
		<description>Oh by Javascript I meant in reference to content = text/javascript  (I wont post it correctly incase dan has HTML active in posts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh by Javascript I meant in reference to content = text/javascript  (I wont post it correctly incase dan has HTML active in posts!</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-198</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-198</guid>
		<description>@Jack

Google Adsense code is Valid, to whatever DocType they made it for, its mainly Javascript errors which are easily fixed.  I&#039;ve had adsense, analytics, all sorts from google added.

Google even admit themselves that &quot;Clean Code&quot; is better for SEO, although you may translate that to whatever you like, I would class clean code as HTML Valid, others would just say not.  Either way, dirty code can cause loops within browsers, browsing problems with different languages and charsets.  Remember Content &gt;&gt; CODE.

The more code you have on a website the Code2Content ratio changes, which effects SEO, thus HTML Strict would be the best DocType to adhere to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jack</p>
<p>Google Adsense code is Valid, to whatever DocType they made it for, its mainly Javascript errors which are easily fixed.  I&#8217;ve had adsense, analytics, all sorts from google added.</p>
<p>Google even admit themselves that &#8220;Clean Code&#8221; is better for SEO, although you may translate that to whatever you like, I would class clean code as HTML Valid, others would just say not.  Either way, dirty code can cause loops within browsers, browsing problems with different languages and charsets.  Remember Content &gt;&gt; CODE.</p>
<p>The more code you have on a website the Code2Content ratio changes, which effects SEO, thus HTML Strict would be the best DocType to adhere to.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Franklin</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-211</guid>
		<description>I think there is a limit to how anal you need to be - yes I think that I partially agree with Adam that you do need to have valid code. But (tell me if this is wrong), I seem to remember a while back that Google Adsense code was buggering over the validation on my site - surely designers can not see the need to make valid code when one of the biggest web companies in the world are producing invalid code for them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is a limit to how anal you need to be &#8211; yes I think that I partially agree with Adam that you do need to have valid code. But (tell me if this is wrong), I seem to remember a while back that Google Adsense code was buggering over the validation on my site &#8211; surely designers can not see the need to make valid code when one of the biggest web companies in the world are producing invalid code for them?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-212</guid>
		<description>I would just like to summarise my opinions and points up here;

Anyone can make a beautiful well designed website, the true skill in making such a website is coding it valid, and accessible, the code is part of the beauty, if the code is ugly, the site will display ugly on a variety of browsers unused by the designer, 99% of bugs I have come across with someones website that is due to the fact that its NOT HTML Valid and once its made valid the majority if not all of these problems and bugs are removed. I was the Hitler of the WebForumz for this, when someone posted &quot;This does not display right&quot; - Come back when its HTML Valid.

There are rules and regulations in the vast majority of Industries, which companies are forced to abide by, in the web industry there are none, only guidelines.  This is why there are so many cowboys in the trade putting strain on the &quot;Real&quot; Designers and Coders who are working hard to make the web a better place.  It&#039;s about time people started to think and act upon the web standards and make them common place, I annoys me to hear phrases like &quot;Ill make the site first then I will make it HTML Valid after&quot; - WHY? Can you not code CLEANLY enough to have it valid in the first place?

Web Accessibility for me is like the wheelchair ramp for a shop, if people cannot get in your shop they will not buy, if people view your website and its a mess or cannot navigate it easily then they will leave, and you would have just lost out.

It&#039;s true you cannot always be 100% perfect across every single browser on the planet, and its true that the Web and its Applications and uses change daily for the better/worse.  Keeping up with the new technologies is what I would class as vital as a designer and coder, and its our responsibility.  We are not accountants where 1+1 is 2,  We are designers where our normal way of thinking or doing is changed, expanded upon, where we constantly learn new techniques and strive to better ourselves in such a complex and competitive industry.

-Adam :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would just like to summarise my opinions and points up here;</p>
<p>Anyone can make a beautiful well designed website, the true skill in making such a website is coding it valid, and accessible, the code is part of the beauty, if the code is ugly, the site will display ugly on a variety of browsers unused by the designer, 99% of bugs I have come across with someones website that is due to the fact that its NOT HTML Valid and once its made valid the majority if not all of these problems and bugs are removed. I was the Hitler of the WebForumz for this, when someone posted &#8220;This does not display right&#8221; &#8211; Come back when its HTML Valid.</p>
<p>There are rules and regulations in the vast majority of Industries, which companies are forced to abide by, in the web industry there are none, only guidelines.  This is why there are so many cowboys in the trade putting strain on the &#8220;Real&#8221; Designers and Coders who are working hard to make the web a better place.  It&#8217;s about time people started to think and act upon the web standards and make them common place, I annoys me to hear phrases like &#8220;Ill make the site first then I will make it HTML Valid after&#8221; &#8211; WHY? Can you not code CLEANLY enough to have it valid in the first place?</p>
<p>Web Accessibility for me is like the wheelchair ramp for a shop, if people cannot get in your shop they will not buy, if people view your website and its a mess or cannot navigate it easily then they will leave, and you would have just lost out.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true you cannot always be 100% perfect across every single browser on the planet, and its true that the Web and its Applications and uses change daily for the better/worse.  Keeping up with the new technologies is what I would class as vital as a designer and coder, and its our responsibility.  We are not accountants where 1+1 is 2,  We are designers where our normal way of thinking or doing is changed, expanded upon, where we constantly learn new techniques and strive to better ourselves in such a complex and competitive industry.</p>
<p>-Adam <img src='http://minute44.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Amy Mahon</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy Mahon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 11:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-210</guid>
		<description>Great post -- I totally agree!  It&#039;s frustrating when you get thrown into bidding wars against companies like these because you just want to shake the client and have them magically understand all the points that you listed although it&#039;s never quite that easy, and more often than not they go with the cheaper website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post &#8212; I totally agree!  It&#8217;s frustrating when you get thrown into bidding wars against companies like these because you just want to shake the client and have them magically understand all the points that you listed although it&#8217;s never quite that easy, and more often than not they go with the cheaper website.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://minute44.com/archives/technology-and-web/getting-what-you-pay-for-a-sort-of-case-study/comment-page-1#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 09:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.minute44.com/?p=217#comment-209</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually cooking up a follow-up piece to this about how anal one should be about standards, particularly WAI and W3C validation.

You see, Adam @ MinuteDesigns and I are locked in this perpetual argument about how Validation isn&#039;t the absolute be all and end all of a project and I thought it would be a good post if I put my viewpoint out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually cooking up a follow-up piece to this about how anal one should be about standards, particularly WAI and W3C validation.</p>
<p>You see, Adam @ MinuteDesigns and I are locked in this perpetual argument about how Validation isn&#8217;t the absolute be all and end all of a project and I thought it would be a good post if I put my viewpoint out there.</p>
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