June 16, 2009
Police brutality?
Today I was shown the following video of a man being arrested on suspicion of GBH after being thrown out of a Nottingham club. The man is seen to be resisting arrest and is hit with a Taser (a non-lethal weapon that delivers a 50,000 volt shock). Despite this, the man continues to resist and is tasered again. When he still resists one of the officers is seen to punch the man 3 times.
Of course, when this video was posted on a local radio website the controversy kicked off in a big way. On the face of it it looks pretty bad. Of course police are not allowed to punch a suspect regardless of how much he or she fights, but how much can the officer be blamed?
Going on what information has been made available, the man was ejected from a club by doormen who felt that the assault he had committed was serious enough to inform police (minor offences are usually dealt with by the door staff alone). When the police tried to arrest him he began to resist. At this point, the crowd (just off camera) would be beginning to form. After being tased the man is seen to continue to resist, snatching his arms away from cuffs and kicking his legs. After another attempt to cuff the man he is tasered again. The crowd is now becoming visible on camera. After the second hit from the taser the man seems slightly more subdued but he is still resisting strongly. It is at this point the police officer on the right delivers three punches to the man’s head.
So what we have is a hugely stressful situation for the 2 police officers who are first on scene. They know that they can’t afford to drag the arrest out because of the growing crowd and the chance they may turn violent. Couple that with a man, who despite being tased continues to resist, making the situation more and more tense. One officer makes a decision to hit the man. Of course this was a bad call and I have no doubt that the officer regrets the choice with or without the video evidence being leaked.
A few things bother me though. Firstly, in that situation it would have been perceived to be more acceptable for the officer to use his baton, a much more harmful weapon than his fist. Secondly, tasers aren’t used lightly. Like CS spray, the taser will only be used if the suspect is perceived to be very dangerous or carrying a weapon. In this case the taser seemed to be doing very little to stop the potentially armed man from resisting and a choice was made to use another form of force.
I’m a firm believer of giving police greater powers, not making them work under the constant fear of being sued or fired for using “excessive force”. Police have a stressful enough job to do without having to fear the consequences of their split second decisions. Should this officer be punished for his actions? Probably. But certainly not severely. The punches didn’t look that hard and I’m sure paled in comparison to the assault the suspect is said to have committed.
Of course I don’t have all the evidence and future information may come to light that justifies or condemns the officers’ actions. I’ll just have to wait and see. What do you think about this?
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June 16, 2009 - 11:44 am
He got a good shoe’in, tazered and punched in the head/face multiple times, I’d have sued their arse off!
June 16, 2009 - 2:35 pm
I’d have hit him harder. Then gone back in for seconds after he was handcuffed.
People have this tendancy to believe it is ok to hit people, glass them, stab them in clubs and then get one punch thrown by a policeman at them and claim it is totally ‘unacceptable’.
More police power.
June 16, 2009 - 2:59 pm
@Magua That basically makes police as bad as the people in the first place though.
Looks like the 3 punches were definitely uncalled for, yeah he might not be complying perfectly, but in the grand scheme of things he’s not struggling that much either.
June 16, 2009 - 3:22 pm
It’s interesting hearing people’s spin on the use of force by various police forces. I once met a guy who tried to convinse me that German police used throwing knives on him and his brother at a demonstration.
I, of course, digress but I think what Magua is getting at is a simple case of the punishment fitting the crime. If people are hitting/glassing/stabbing folk in clubs and bars it seems silly that they should be treated with kid gloves.
If violent offenders are dealt with and not wrapped in cotton wool as has become the norm, we might see people thinking twice about putting the boot in.
June 17, 2009 - 11:55 am
It’s a difficult one this – the force used here was defo uncalled for in my opinion and yes tom it does make the police as bad as the people but at the same time, I think Magua does have a point!
Well put Dan!
June 17, 2009 - 4:46 pm
Thinking about this more, the guy should be thinking himself lucky this got ended with three moderate punches. If they’d continued to discharge the taser, he could have been killed.
June 18, 2009 - 1:28 pm
I agree with Magua.
Answer me this; if he’d just punched your girlfriend/boyfriend in the face would you still think what he got was excessive force?
I recon people need to give the 5-0 a break – else one day they will go on strike – then we WILL be fucked!
June 18, 2009 - 1:31 pm
He should at least be suspended. No matter what a police officer who is representing her majesty the Queen, the UK government and UK justice system should not result to punching any suspect whether he is or isn’t resisting arrest. The man was kicking and making a fuss, he wasn’t smacking the police officers and officers deal with this kinda stuff daily – he should be used to it, most drunk ‘tards will resist, its what they do.
I have no sympathy for the police officer at all – he broke the rules, done what he isnt allowed to do and should be punished.
June 18, 2009 - 1:42 pm
makes me laugh that everyone’s so opinionated, yet NO ONE knows what this guy was having his ass kicked for..
He could of just tried to shoot someone or something!
Dont get me wrong, i dont really like the 5-0, but i do respect the fact they deal with fucknuts and degenerates ALL day long… If i was them i’d take a bat to a few of their heads, too!
June 18, 2009 - 1:50 pm
I think murder and drunken disturbance are no where near the same thing! But lets go with that – if someone shot my mom in front of me and a cop and the cop went over to him and beat the crap out of him – yes, I’d probably join in. But if that cop got the sack for it then so beit – it was his choice to break police rules.
The guy was being rowdy inside a club and got kicked out – if he had a gun and threat ended to use it the bouncers would of took it off him not let him out in the streets. He was basically pissed, didn’t wanna be arrested cause of course ‘drunk people are never in the wrong’ and kicked up a fuss like HUNDREDS of other people do through the UK every Friday and Saturday.
The cop could of called in for more officers or pinned him down – it is doable – smacking him around the face for resisting arrest cannot be justified and he should be punished for his actions
June 18, 2009 - 2:00 pm
Yowzers!
Gav(holeycoww), I see what you’re saying. If the cop resorts to punching the guy they are just two guys in a public fight, what should it matter if one of them is a cop.
It raises a lot more interesting moral issues about the difference between “us and them”.
My stance remains the same, however. If the cop is punished, his punishment shouldn’t be severe. Perhaps the same £80 fine that a civilian would get for a public order offence.
The fact is UK police are simply not equipped with sufficient powers to pose a legitimate response to the kind of street crime we are seeing in greater and greater abundance. It’s only a matter of time before a cop will snap and make a bad choice. It’s the same with anything. If enough red tape prevents you from doing your job to the best of your ability you’ll get frustrated as hell and may end up bending/breaking a few rules.
June 18, 2009 - 2:01 pm
Actually…
“Going on what information has been made available,”
That doesn’t mean that the information we have is 100% accurate.
We’ll agree to disagree – i actually think the police should be given MORE rights!
The whole problem with society today is people play the system and know what they can and cant get away with – and it doesn’t help that magistrates, judges and the police have their hands tied when it comes to making decisions even though they can see with their own eyes something is wrong – and when they act on impulse despite the fact they may of saved a life or helped someone, they get in the shit for it.
June 18, 2009 - 2:15 pm
Give them more power? So the police who are trying to stop gun crime, give them the power to shoot people
the ones who are stopping knife crime, give them a butchers knife
The ones who patrol the streets trying to prevent violence, give them the ability to beat anyone they feel needs it – just like a drunk does.
A police officer is a person who prevents law breakers not increases it.
You cannot fight fire with fire – as Gandhi once said: “An eye for an eye eventually makes the whole world blind”
June 18, 2009 - 2:25 pm
I’m sure that’s not what he meant. It’s certainly not what I meant. The realistic key to prevention of street crime is extremely harsh punishment. Particularly for repeat offenders.
For example: Someone gets arrested for fighting, they get a £200 fine (£80 is nothing to someone who can spend £100-£200 on a night out). Second time they get caught the fine is £1000 plus 500 hours of community service. Third time is a minimum 1 year jail sentence. At least double those punishments if any kind of weapon is involved.
If the police know that the thug they have to treat like royalty will get a fitting punishment it might go some way to making them a lot less frustrated. I know if I were a cop I’d feel like “What’s the point of us arresting this twat? He’ll get a slapped wrist and do the same thing next weekend.”
An eye for an eye might make the whole world blind but a mickey mouse punishment for violent street crime just makes a mockery of the justice system and does nothing for crime prevetion.
June 18, 2009 - 2:28 pm
True, but this isnt about what punishment the offender will get because YES he was in the wrong and i do believe the justice system is flawed when it comes to punishments.
This is about a police officer punching a civilian – its not allowed, it should be allowed and he should be punished accordingly by his employer
June 18, 2009 - 2:28 pm
I see your point – however, i didn’t say give the cops guns and knives!
I said they should have more power/rights and should not have everyone on their backs all the time or sooner or later they’ll tell us all bollocks
June 18, 2009 - 2:38 pm
@HoleyCoww – That is true, but like I said in the post it’s funny how police are legally allowed to dish out much more traumatic force than a simple punch. I’d rather be punched in the face than tazered multiple times and/or hit with a baton or get CS gas in my eyeballs.
It must be something about the unquantifiable nature of a punch that carries connotations of brutality even when much more “controlled” force is seen to be acceptible when it is probably more traumatic/destructive.
@Olly – I know if I were that cop and I got anything more than a sharp telling off I’d probably throw down my badge (do they have them here?) and say “Fuck it! You deal with them then. I’m out.”
June 18, 2009 - 2:47 pm
Dan i agree that a punch is no where near as painful as a taser.
The reason behind they give CS Gas and / or taser is because it has no lasting effects. If a cop punches a criminal in the eye and blinds him he and the justice system is fucked. Yet CS Gas or taser is a short lived pain that can cause no long term damage.
June 18, 2009 - 2:58 pm
You’re right, I was just illustrating.
However, you say: “If a cop punches a criminal in the eye and blinds him he and the justice system is fucked.”
Imagine if that guy was fitted with a pacemaker and the taser killed it. Any application of police force has the potential to permenantly injure or even kill. I just think that the punishment for using one that isn’t “oficially sanctioned” shouldn’t be all that severe, particularly given the stressful nature of the job.
More specifically the punishment should relate to the circumstances under which the force was used not the type of application. If the guy was being compliant and freely giving himself up for arrest and he got punched then yes, the cop should be well and truly hauled over the coals. Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxzYbTIUKgM
That guy should be fired.
June 18, 2009 - 3:01 pm
Agreed even a taser can kill if used on the wrong person. Which is why police will only use it when they have no other option left – usually meaning the crim has resisted arrest for to long.
If he had a pacemaker – i guarantee he wouldn’t resist for long.
But i think were splitting hairs here, both crim and cop were wrong. Both should be punished but yes the cop will come off worse. But end of the day he punched someone while at work – in any other job you would be sacked for the same, what makes this worse is that this cop is meant to be a representation of our justice system and Queen
June 18, 2009 - 3:05 pm
Fuck the queen! – not literally, obviously…gross.
But yes you’re right, this could go back and forth forever so we’ll pack it in about now…
Nowt like a friendly debate.
June 18, 2009 - 3:13 pm
Agreed, love it. Bring on the next one!
June 20, 2009 - 5:03 am
The blows were to the shoulder to ‘persuade’ the guy to move his arm – not to his head.
June 26, 2009 - 2:10 pm
The second and third ones might have been but that first one was definately to his head/face.
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